The answer to fundamentalism is democracy

BBC World Service interview with Shahin Ghobadi, member of the National Council of Resistance

presiding in that video is the NCRI President-elect Maryam Rajavi. She was born in Tehran, now lives in exile. Her oldest sister Narges was killed by the Shah's secret police, the SAVAK, in 1975. Her other sister Masoumeh was arrested by the regime in 1982 and hanged. So what part do the NCRI play, if any, and how much support do they have? Shahin Gobadi is the leading spokesperson for the MEK. He is in Paris, where the G7 is meeting today. Shahin, it's very good to have you with us. Good to see you again.

Thanks for having me, Christian.

I don't want to explore the merits of the war. I want to understand the NCRI and the MEK and the role that it plays. How many supporters do you think you have globally? And are you being discussed in the corridors of power as a potential alternative?

Well, as you know, the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran has been fighting against the Shah's tyranny and the Mullah's tyranny for the past 60 years. Now it has a very vast network of operatives known as resistance units and they function in all 31 provinces throughout the country and they play a very key role in directing, leading many protests and strikes during the January uprising, as you remember, went on throughout the country for days and days. Just to give an idea, more than 2,000 members of the resistance units have been basically disconnected ever since. We don't know if they were arrested or they were executed or whatever happened to them. So that should give you a good sense of how big of a movement we are talking about. And regarding the future of Iran, one has to keep in mind that the future of Iran will be decided in the streets of Iran and in our view, the ultimate solution to the crisis that the world is facing today, now very close to the full month, is a regime change. But that should come and would come by the Iranian people and at the core of it, an organized resistance in which...

Are you saying the MEK is playing a part in that resistance? Because there's a great debate about whether the Iranians can truly take things into their own hands under the yoke of the Basij.

Well, people obviously would take things in their own hands. One has to wait for the war to finish and obviously the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran and the resistance movement would play a key role to that effect. I think this is the biggest missing element in the discussions that the ultimate change in Iran should come and would come by the Iranian people, but they need an organized resistance at its core and that's the role that the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran have been playing. And let's...

Well, you have it... You have a 10-point plan. I'm going to put it on screen. So you have a plan to go forward towards a democratic Iran. I mean, what mandate do you have from people in Iran? You're a group that fought on the part of Saddam Hussein during the war between Iran and Iraq, so in some quarters you are dismissed as someone not relevant in this debate.

Well obviously we did not fight on the side of Saddam Hussein in the war back in 1980s. We were always an independent movement and will remain an independent movement. And let's keep in mind that as you said, there's a 10-point plan articulated by Madam Maryam Rajavi, the President-elect of the National Council of Resistance of Iran, which calls for a separation of government and religion, for gender equality, for a non-nuclear Iran and abolishment of death penalty and peaceful and amicable relationships with the rest of the world. All I can tell you about the role that the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran plays is that this is a number one domestic preoccupation of the regime and its repressive apparatus, and that's for a very good reason. To make a case for you, just on February 23rd, five days before the war began, 250 fighters of the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran made a raid against the compound of Ali Khamenei, which was the most secure, most dangerous place in Iran. So that gives a good sense of what role People's Mojahedin of Iran plays these days inside the country. So the issue is not what one believes or one does not believe. I think what's happening on the ground in the streets of Iran is the key issue and to that effect, the National Council of Resistance of Iran declared a provisional government on February 28th based on Madam Rajavi's 10-point plan. So basically the point I'm trying to make is that there is a strong infrastructure inside the country, there's a viable democratic alternative with a very clear roadmap for a transitional period. So Iranians are quite clear-eyed and open-eyed about what they want and as I said, the fate will be decided by them in the streets of Iran.

Well Madam Rajavi is clear-eyed, I mean she's named herself as the President-elect. I'm just keen to understand and explore that further because the Crown Prince has been discussed by the powers that be in Washington as a potential peacemaker. Her sister was murdered by the Shah's secret police, so when we talk about the fractured nature of the opposition in Iran, how likely is it that these two forces, the Crown Prince and Miss Rajavi, the NCRI, could work together?

Basically the NCRI is a coalition of Iranian democratic opposition movements that reject both theocracy and monarchy for a very good reason, because both of them have been despotic rules and the Iranians reject all of that. One has...

But it exists within the group, doesn't it?

Basically, one has to listen to the slogans in the streets of Iran when people chant "Down with oppressor, being the Shah or the Supreme Leader" and that comes from the streets of Iran, that clearly means that the Iranian people reject any form of dictatorship and they're looking for real democracy. And when you talk about the baby Shah as is known among Iranians, all you know about him is because he's the son of a notorious dictator who was deposed by millions and millions of Iranians because of his one-party rule and because of massive corruption. He has no infrastructure inside Iran, let alone not outside of Iran, and just by, you know, by interviews and, you know, by clicks and social media, you cannot overcome the brutal, ruthless Mullahs...

Right, but but but but you've still not answered my principal question. We've known each other for 20-odd years, Mr. Gobadi, you've been a... you've lobbied me and many other journalists and many politicians for years and years about this issue. I want to understand why you're not being discussed, why we don't hear Donald Trump talking about the NCRI, why in Paris is Emmanuel Macron not talking about your organization with thousands, you say thousands of supporters who could come and support the operation?

Well first of all, in terms of the history, you have to keep in mind that more than 120,000 activists of the People's Mojahedin Organization of Iran have been executed. That shows you clearly the grassroots support for the movement inside Iran for the last 45 years. And I think that speaks volumes about the deep-rooted grassroots support for this movement. Obviously there are a lot of politicians in the parliaments, like the majority members of the US Congress who support the 10-point plan of Madam Rajavi, as well as the majority members of the British House of Commons and House of Lords, as well as a large number of the members of the French Assemblée Nationale. And just the other day, 29 very, very prominent former US officials signed a statement in support of, you know, the 10-point plan of Madam Rajavi. So I think where the issue comes down to is very simple: who has the viable solution inside Iran to bring about a change? Because now one thing has been quite proven, Christian, is that neither appeasement nor foreign war is the solution for the Iranian crisis. The Western capitals tried in any shape and form to appease the Mullahs as we saw the disastrous results. Now as I said we are on the cusp of one full month of war and we know that the regime change cannot be brought about by bombing from the air. So it comes down to this very simple question: who has the grassroots support, organization and the people on the ground who are willing to fight and die for a different Iran? And I think the track record of the People's Mojahedin of Iran to that effect speaks volumes to that effect.

BBC World Service